Note: Someone else's tacker.
Around the time we discovered we had Chef Du Plunge on the way people starting asking if we were going to give up our inner city apartment and move to the burbs. We resisted the idea in conversation, arguing that kids all over the world grow up in apartments, and how bad could it be.
Well, five calendar months in and the boy is doing well, he’s a whopping 10.3kg, extremely healthy, and teething – which has involved a lot of sleepness nights lately. Actually, here’s something interesting. He used to grin in this huge, whole face grin like the one pictured. But since his two bottom teeth have come thru his grin has changed into something like a grimace. I’m thinking that he’s trying to copy the way that adults around him smile? Thing is, we’re thinking that this is normal. Because who actually smiles like the wee tacker pictured? Crazy people, that’s who.
Anyhow. The apartment is just starting to get a little too small. It’s ok, because we’re not damp and are very warm. And in Wellington winters that’s all you need. But Second Chef and I are starting to notice that the space needed for three people is just a tiny bit more than for two, and we both think that CDP is likely to be your typically noisy boy.
So, we’re thinking seriously about making the move out to someplace cheaper. I say someplace cheaper because we could move into a three-bedroom apartment in the city, but for some reason the stock of 3-roomers is really low, pushing prices through the room (both to rent and to buy). Plus, Cuba Street isn’t exactly toddler-friendly. If we were closer to the Aro Valley we might be ok sending CDP outside to play, and not have to worry about him being collected by a bus and deposited in Island Bay.
There’s also the fact that any place we move to has to accomodate the cost of transport to and from work. Why pay the same rent only to then pay more for transport? That would effectively increase our costs and drive Frugal Me round the twist.
The trouble is that these considerations limit where we can live. Mt Victoria is too expensive. A three bedroom place there would set up back a fortune, just as it would in Thorndon, or even parts of Mt Cook.
So this leaves the horrifying option of the Hutt, in response to which I would rather stab needles into my ears and bleed to death slowly, or one of the east/west suburbs around Wellington. Kilbirnie is too noisy on account of the airport, and anything east of there is too far from CDP’s grandparents. West of the city is Karori, which is a very real option, along with the cheaper bits of Kelburn and Northland.
Otherwise, we’re looking at someplace in the north like Johnsonville.
The main consideration is distance. What I don’t want to have to do is waste money owning a car, AND paying to go everywhere I used to walk. Plus CDP seems to love being in the out of doors, so the neighbourhood needs to be walkable.
It irks me to have to think seriously about all this. But after talking it over with Second Chef this evening over dinner three words popped into my head and near-completely sold me on the idea.
Fun. Renovation. Projects.
The current idea is that we rent in a suburb for awhile, and maybe buy something cheap and fixable. After all, which Peter Pan doesn’t like to build forts?
5 May, 2009 at 9:30 pm
Three things that the Hutt has that Karori or Johnsonville doesn’t:
1 weekly farmer’s market
2 the Dowse
3 Petone.
I rest my case (and dare you to defy the rhetorical power of the three part list!)
5 May, 2009 at 9:55 pm
Newlands
5 May, 2009 at 9:57 pm
sorry, I was underselling the Hutt – there is actually more than one farmer at the market. too tired to correctly place apostrophes …
5 May, 2009 at 10:09 pm
You know with such a move renting might be the otpion until you get to know how suburbia will suit (and which part). i can see Karori/Kelburn/Northland good options. Goign from CBD to the outer suburbs might be too big a jump.
In the past I have lived in the Hutt, Tawa, Porirua and Aro Valley. Bits of the Hutt are ok (Petone) but I’d avoid anything too far out
5 May, 2009 at 10:23 pm
@christina, maybe for those of you who own their houses that cost of travel isn’t too bad.
not us.
@will. i think you’re channelling something. second chef’s parents live in the progressive suburb. you can buy harbour views there for something like 400k… sigh.
@art. that’s pretty much the plan. pick a burb, rent, and see if it’s worth buying there.
good schools in karori.
5 May, 2009 at 10:30 pm
I am trying really hard not to throw your suburb-hating, death of the soul talk of not long ago back in your face. You should see the veins in my forehead!
That said, Karori actually *is* sould-destroying. Anywhere else you’d be fine. Have you considered lovely Berhampore? It used to have affordable pockets of 3-bedroom renting. And it’s a stone’s throw from the CBD, although they don’t like it when you do that.
5 May, 2009 at 10:46 pm
2nd chef has already warned me that i’m in for a fair amount of ribbing for my suburb hating ways…
berhampore is an option. although “cheap melrose with a view and a renovation” is more preferable.
5 May, 2009 at 10:49 pm
We adore Berhampore. We also came to regret having bought a doer-upper, but that’s a whole nother story. Renovations and kids is a difficult combination, much as I hate dispensing advice.
5 May, 2009 at 10:58 pm
i should add that when i say renovation i’m thinking, insulation, dvt, a lick of paint, bookshelves, and a garden with a tree and me planted under it looking at the tomatoes in the greenhouse occasionally, then going back to my book.
new rooms/kitchen/bathroom is a whole nother matter
5 May, 2009 at 10:59 pm
You are a wise man.
5 May, 2009 at 11:28 pm
Karori… Karori… Karori…. it’s calling to you, Che.
But Newtown / Berhampore / Island Bay would be much more fun, except for the southerlies howling up out of Cook Strait.
Look for: bus routes, supermarkets, doctors/dentists, parks for children (Island Bay has an excellent one, Karori is NSG – not so good), local libraries, cafes. A local farmers’ market would be a real bonus.
5 May, 2009 at 11:58 pm
Karori??
You have got to be f’ing kidding – that will so not solve any transport problems!
6 May, 2009 at 12:43 am
It’s a slippery slope Che… next thing you’ll be telling us you’re buying a car
J’ville is great (but then I’m biased); or maybe Churton Park. Plenty of transport (alas no snapper card).
Agree with giovanni… Karori is soul destroying, and cold
6 May, 2009 at 8:18 am
Oh, it’s very fashionable to hate on Karori but it’s very ‘family friendly’. The town centre has everything you need, there’s a good pool, library, good schools, lot’s of very good walks and two huge parks. The public transport is adequate.
6 May, 2009 at 8:42 am
@deborah. mates rates on ur old place?
6 May, 2009 at 9:39 am
‘If we were closer to the Aro Valley we might be ok sending CDP outside to play, and not have to worry about him being collected by a bus and deposited in Island Bay’
Remember up in Holloway Rd off Aro Str there’s that ever so helpful graffiti residents scrawled on the tarmac to caution passing drivers: “WARNING SLOW CHILDREN”.
It’s quite handy, because if you’re driving by in years to come you could avoid inviting the slow children onto your pub quiz team.
6 May, 2009 at 9:58 am
Go South Young Man!
Newtown (how did you forget Newtown?) is still walkable and a bit of a bus-hub*. I think you might be screwed if you don’t want to pay for ANY place you used to walk because, well, you’re going to be further away.
But seriously, stay away from real burbs to the north.
And I can’t help myself:
::cough::suburbandream::cough::
But unlike Giovanni, I’m giggling. Dude, when’s the potluck dinner?
*Newtown bonus: come round for dinner and Amy’s arm is easily twisted for baby sitting
6 May, 2009 at 11:57 am
@hadyn, trouble is, we can’t afford to buy in newtown. or the place we can buy is so run-down we end up in renovation hell. the intention is to rent in a suburb for a while, then buy next year when prices have come down.
and by walkable i meant, “not draped over a series of hills”.
6 May, 2009 at 1:46 pm
the intention is to rent in a suburb for a while, then buy next year when prices have come down.
You sure this will happen?
Re our old place – not available until early next year, which might be just a little late for you. But it’s got all the middle-class features: good schools, good parks, walk to shops and schools, not-so-frequent bus route 50m away, very frequent and well-trollied bus route 400m away, valley views, good heating, well insulated, native trees…
6 May, 2009 at 1:51 pm
@deborah. have been following bernard hickey on twitter.
indications are that prices are still about 20% above what they should be. banks aren’t handing on OCR savings, and there is untold positive spin from real estate agents (who are silent when things are good).
so… probably.
6 May, 2009 at 1:53 pm
Moving to a suburb, discussing house prices… you’re rebranding yourself into The Listener!
6 May, 2009 at 2:25 pm
heh. every dollar you borrow costs you $1.5 in interest over the lifetime of the loan.
Frugal Me refuses to let me spend more than I have to. the sooner we pay the first place down, the sooner we can afford to move back into the city – to that dream place in hannah apartments.
6 May, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Timing the market is the hardest thing, though. I’m a firm believer in buy when you’re ready (financially, because you want a place of your own) and don’t be afraid of renting. If you think you’re being hurried up by a market frenzy or slowed down by market experts, it’s probably best to ignore – historically they pretty much never get it right.
6 May, 2009 at 3:02 pm
have been watching the market pretty carefully over the past couple of years.
we have the perfect storm where we’re just about ready, and prices have softened considerably from their peak in nov ’07.
by the end of the year we’ll both be settled back into employment, and have a nice cushy deposit to use.
6 May, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Yes – buy as much and only as much as you can afford to pay the mortgage on, and preferably a little less, and then plan to live there, not treat it as an investment.
Che, I wonder if the supply of housing may dry up a little. Plenty of people (like us!) find that we don’t actually need to sell, so we are happy to put tenants in our place instead, and others will just not move. The only people selling will be those who are forced to do so. Tighter supply should drive prices up, or at least not fall as much as they otherwise might. It’s also worth being aware of regional variation – so far Wellington house prices have not been falling in the way that house prices elsewhere in the country have.
Oh well… must go off to my political theory tutes.
6 May, 2009 at 3:00 pm
sure, but demand is also drying up because of the recession. the entire market is constricting.
and a distressed vendor is exactly what a ruthless type like myself is looking to exploit. although, i’m preferring to gut someone who’s been using a LAQC…
6 May, 2009 at 2:43 pm
@ Haydn
Newtown bonus: come round for dinner and Amy’s arm is easily twisted for baby sitting
But not yours?
6 May, 2009 at 3:03 pm
I don’t know about cost, but there comes a point in the suburbs where it’s actually as quick to get to town (the parliament end at least) by train from the hutt.
The market is more of a market with farmers than a farmers’ market, but it seems to be slowly sprouting artisanal types.
6 May, 2009 at 3:06 pm
The market is more of a market with farmers than a farmers’ market, but it seems to be slowly sprouting artisanal types.
I thought you were referring to the housing market there and was ready to dub you the king of metaphor.
6 May, 2009 at 3:35 pm
Before we moved back to NZ, I had a reasonable idea of where we’d live. Obviously too close to the city was out, but maybe somewhere like Mt Cook, Brooklyn, Karori… then I got back, saw the prices, did the math, and figured out what we could afford. Which is why I’m living in Newlands.
Well, we’re in Newlands because that’s where the house we liked happens to sit, but it’s surprisingly good. But wait! Aren’t the northern suburbs, like, the arse end of Wellington? Not really. Ngaio is within 5k of the CBD; Newlands is about 10k out and has an _excellent_ bus service. Newlands/J’ville are about as far from the CBD as Karori. And if you count the parts of Karori that you can actually afford to live in, Newlands is closer. Seriously: when I worked in the CBD, I could leave home and be at work in 20 minutes by bicycle (and I am no particular speed demon).
Other reasons to like Newlands: good community spirit, excellent amenities from the Indian community, transport links, relatively affordable, and – and don’t discount this one – lots of other young families, who’ve moved in for exactly the reasons above. We have two young kids (nearly 2 and 5); my oldest daughter knows and plays with the kids on both sides of us. Lots of infrastructure for children and young families. And with the larger developments going in up Woodridge, there’s more demand for basic infrastructure: why, we may even get a supermarket one of these days. But there’s J’ville for that if you want to pop into the big smoke.
You will probably need a car, though. This may be a problem; however, you’ll probably end up needing a car if you move anywhere further than 5k out of the city.
But seriously: you are not a class traitor for realising that the suburbs are designed specifically to answer a lot of the questions you’re now starting to ask yourself. Come join the North Wellington Massive!
6 May, 2009 at 7:15 pm
dunno about fear of being a class traitor. just owning my own place will set me out from three generations of tibbys…
and you make a convincing argument.
come september or october we just might be moving north.
ma te wa.
6 May, 2009 at 11:13 pm
this is well articulated support for Newlands and its strong community spirit
similar comments could equally apply to Johnsonville where we lived 1991 to 2000 during which time our kids were both born
we lived Newlands 2000-2007 when Andrea grew from 6 to 14 and Joel from 3 to 10
for nearly all the time we lived in Johnsonville and Newlands I caught public transport into the city and found it to be excellent ie frequent, quick journey to/from city and reasonably cheap
we now live in Broadmeadows and are equally happy up here from a family/community perspective … there is a good bus service up here for office hours commuters to/from the city at peak times but its not a great bus service outside those hours although there is a shopper connection to/from Jvl during the day … definitely car country up here (and crampons on a ‘breezy’/windy day!)
I’m a life long Wellingtonian and grew up the southern suburbs (lived Kingston until I was 18, primary school Ridgway, SWIS intermediate in Berhampore, then Rongotai College) … while that was a long time ago my comparison is that the northern suburbs beat the southern suburbs hands down for family life and community spirit
6 May, 2009 at 4:21 pm
only five months and ten kgs! what are you feeding him????
6 May, 2009 at 7:19 pm
milk until a couple of weeks ago.
you have admire second chef!
6 May, 2009 at 7:18 pm
It appears that transport is a major factor in your decision. I’m not sure what your attitude to bikes is, but investing in a serious cargo bike might be worth considering – as something that would give you more options and stay away from expensive cars. A Christiana or other model might work. Slightly pricey with shipping, but compared to what a car ends up costing, usually highly frugal (in my limited experience). Otherwise, don’t underestimate what a bicycle with a child-seat is capable of.
As has been said above, don’t live anywhere which is cold and wet, and where the streets feel lifeless.
7 May, 2009 at 11:27 am
I’ve certainly seem xtracycles around town (there’s a bloke who rides one commuting around the bays in the morning), and I’m reasonably sure that I saw a Kona Ute the other day.
While I’m generally very pro bike, I’ve got to admit that I wouldn’t particularly want to have to schlepp all my shopping uphill on one. That said, why bother going to the supermarket at all? I’m pretty sure several NZ supermarkets offer online shopping (though they may not be the cheap ones).
Another option might be a normal bike with a cargo trailer. There’s a guy in Christchurch that builds/sells them, including selling instructions/kits to make them yourself. Worth a look.
6 May, 2009 at 7:57 pm
Ngaio? You can catch the train, and should you decide to get a bike, it’s downhill in the mornings. Shame about coming home, of course…
7 May, 2009 at 11:21 am
Ngaio hill ain’t much. It’s maybe 10 minutes up from the bottom, and a nice wide road with an easy gradient. Ngaio is an excellent suburb for cycle commuters.
Unless you live on the Old Porirua Road, of course. Then it’s murder.
6 May, 2009 at 9:29 pm
so clearly I’m not going to sway your view on the Hutt – why the prejudice, why? – but can I point out that I buy a 3 month pass for the train (& I’m 2 stops past Petone) for $308. Even if I don’t use it for 5 days out of that quarter, it still only costs me $2.80 per trip. Which stacks up pretty well against the $3 bus fare you’d pay for Karori or Newlands on Snapper($3.20 in September)!
7 May, 2009 at 10:49 am
Might I suggest Hataitai? I know of two easily arm-twistable baby sitters there, too.
7 May, 2009 at 1:26 pm
we might have to move in, so that we can afford the prices…
7 May, 2009 at 10:53 am
And BTW, great song! I love the outro with the didg and the girls’ choir singing in pure Strine.
Eight years went by, eight long years of waiting
Till one day a tall stranger appeared in the land
And he came with lawyers and he came with great ceremony
And through Vincent’s fingers poured a handful of sand…
From little things big things grow
From little things big things grow
7 May, 2009 at 6:59 pm
indeed. it’s an old favourite.
7 May, 2009 at 9:50 pm
petone is actually pretty awesome
and the train service is excellent, pick that before jville or newlands
I’m in karori and love it, 2 supermarkets, a library (very kid friendly) a nice cafe, good schools lovely parks and buses every 15 minutes.
Nothland is even more awesome but in both cases make sure you get sun trap houses
8 May, 2009 at 10:57 am
Problem we found is that we couldn’t afford Petone. We got back in 2005, and it wasn’t a goer even then – I doubt it’d be much better now. Petone is indeed very nice, though.
But do be aware that if you live in the Hutt, you don’t get free membership at the Wellington library any more. You’ll have to truck out to the Hutt for books!
8 May, 2009 at 7:29 pm
But a nice lady from the Wellington Library told me only a couple of months ago that they’ve decided to make membership open to anyone who works in Wellington — they’re just not publicising it widely at the moment.
7 May, 2009 at 11:05 pm
Consider Owhiro Bay as well – cheaper than Island Bay but close to its facilities (toy library, kindy, great park). The school is excellent and they’re building a kindy there too. Plus its a bit more multicultural than many parts of Wellington. Got to watch the wind of course but some parts are quite sheltered. Public transport is pretty poor sadly. There’s this at the moment – http://tinyurl.com/ctjdg6 – looks like a lot of work, so the price might be a bit high, but it’s an example
18 May, 2009 at 4:19 pm
i should add that when i say renovation i’m thinking, insulation, dvt, a lick of paint, bookshelves, and a garden with a tree and me planted under it looking at the tomatoes in the greenhouse occasionally, then going back to my book.
…silent awe…Agent Che, assimilated…
19 May, 2009 at 10:31 am
you’ll be more surprised to learn we were looking at houses in newlands this past weekend.
maybe we can use a house as a secret urban-guerilla training camp.
25 May, 2009 at 5:48 pm
Join us, Tibby. Newlands is more subversive than you think. We live just down the street from Michael Tuffery, for instance.